My Mk3 2.2 TDCi is suffering with a judder from the front. It's there at 70mph, but only slightly, and I've had the wheels recently re-balanced, so shouldn't be that.
Under braking, the judder is more pronounced. Makes me think of warped discs. The discs have been on since January, and I've done around 14,000 (motorway) miles since then. It had failed its MOT in Jan due to previous discs being warped, and so I think I have the same problem. It seems to me that warping discs is all too common on these. Perhaps poor heat dissipation?
I should add, back in January, the runners/guides were changed over as it looked like the pads had worn out a sliver, making them run unevenly.
I'm planning on replacing discs and pads, and hoping that by picking up a better brand I might get them lasting longer without warping. Until January, I had Pagid, thanks to ECP. Don't know what when on since then. Any recommendations welcome here? Mintex? Brembo maybe? I might also pick up new guide pins to be on the safe side.
I'm wondering if its worth swapping out the calipers. Could they be sticking, and possibly causing hot spots? Every time discs/pads are changed, I clean the runners down as best I can, along with the reset of the hub and carrier. If I do, would these be expected to come with new guides/runners? Or just the piston assembly?
It might be worth re reading the exact wording on why the discs failed the MOT, or looking up the cars MOT history online if you don't have the paper copy.
Im saying that as although discs can warp they can also ace high spots on the due to heat build up.
As for replacement discs I'd recommend genuine ford items. They aren't expensive and are a known quality. When you mention guides/rails I'm assuming you mean the carriers, and no these wouldn't come with new (refurbed) calipers from places like ECP etc.
I'd suggest that if you had issues with the sliding pins on your calipers that it could have been picked up at MOT time. Not only is the braking efficiency of each caliper measured but also that they come ON and then back OFF together.
A sticky set of pins would make one side release the pads slower than the other.
Having the rims balanced won't necessarily mean there's no issue with them. Having a few lead weights added here and there won't remove flat spots or buckles.
@Raynkar - I get what you mean about the rims. This has always been a worry of mine. During a tyre change a couple of years back, I got told there's a buckle in a wheel. I bought a new one ready to swap over, but now that buckle can't be found. All four balance out OK. Personally, I'm not convinced all four are 'true'.
Also, as you say, there were hot spots on the old discs last change over, and also ''nicks' in the carriers that look like they could have been worn in by the pads. The carriers were replaced with some ex-scrap.
I don't have the fail sheet for the MOT, it was all wrapped up over a couple of days, but came back clear after the work was done.
after sleeping on it, I've decided to leave the calipers alone, and replace the discs and pads (stuck between Ford OEM and Brembo), along with the pins for good measure. A little extra time this weekend cleaning down the caliper, carrier and hub might go a long way too.
Incidentally - any opinions if a warped disc can give slight wheel judder when NOT braking? maybe the disc just scrapes the pads enough?
A good way to check if the discs are warped without any pressure on the brake pedal is to gently roll the car forward and then back to see if there's any grabbing
You could get steering wheel judder from warped discs when not braking but other things can do that too.
If you get the font wheels off over the weekend have a check on your track rod ends to see if they are both quite firm.
It might also be worth swapping the front wheels to the rear to see if that makes any difference.
Just read through this thread and from the top I was thinking of suggesting swapping the front wheels/tyres with the back as the initial simple no cost stage in the fault finding process as they have Been 'played' with (then see that Raynkar beat me to it) as some of you know I have a very anal (surprised it let me type that!) attitude to fault finding and unless you follow a sensible and logical process then human nature will get you misled to say the least in the fact you may 'want' it to be something you know about/expect it to be....rambling on again sorry I'll get me coat.....
That link makes interesting reading. Can't believe that whoever had this car first only clocked up 8,000 miles up to its first MOT. Must be genuine, as only 2000 miles per annum for the two tests following that! Anyway, I digress.
the brake failure was: "front brake excessively fluctuating both (3.7.B.3)"
From my understanding, the brake should be held on constant, but the braking force is fluctuating, suggesting the disk is warped. I couldn't reasonably see this as being any reason other than disc, as if it was, surely it wouldn't have been through the retest the same day?
I think a quick wheel swap is the order of the day, followed by new discs/pads. See what happens..
Just read through this thread and from the top I was thinking of suggesting swapping the front wheels/tyres with the back as the initial simple no cost stage in the fault finding process as they have Been 'played' with (then see that Raynkar beat me to it) as some of you know I have a very anal (surprised it let me type that!) attitude to fault finding and unless you follow a sensible and logical process then human nature will get you misled to say the least in the fact you may 'want' it to be something you know about/expect it to be....rambling on again sorry I'll get me coat.....
Paul m.
I wouldn't describe your fault finding proceedure as anal in any way.
In fact after my car wouldn't start recently after I'd washed the engine I had actually thought of you as I'd gone from a 'water' mindset to a 'start at the beginning' mindset.
That link makes interesting reading. Can't believe that whoever had this car first only clocked up 8,000 miles up to its first MOT. Must be genuine, as only 2000 miles per annum for the two tests following that! Anyway, I digress.
the brake failure was: "front brake excessively fluctuating both (3.7.B.3)"
From my understanding, the brake should be held on constant, but the braking force is fluctuating, suggesting the disk is warped. I couldn't reasonably see this as being any reason other than disc, as if it was, surely it wouldn't have been through the retest the same day?
I think a quick wheel swap is the order of the day, followed by new discs/pads. See what happens..
It's quite hard to warp a modern disc, and even harder to warp a smooth disc with no holes or grooves.
The issue with your discs may have been heat damage due to leaving the pads in contact with hot discs. While the overall disc may not be warped there could be a portion that was thicker.
Just read through this thread and from the top I was thinking of suggesting swapping the front wheels/tyres with the back as the initial simple no cost stage in the fault finding process as they have Been 'played' with (then see that Raynkar beat me to it) as some of you know I have a very anal (surprised it let me type that!) attitude to fault finding and unless you follow a sensible and logical process then human nature will get you misled to say the least in the fact you may 'want' it to be something you know about/expect it to be....rambling on again sorry I'll get me coat.....
Paul m.
I wouldn't describe your fault finding proceedure as anal in any way.
In fact after my car wouldn't start recently after I'd washed the engine I had actually thought of you as I'd gone from a 'water' mindset to a 'start at the beginning' mindset.
Just had a brain fart moment about this problem and could it be something as simple as a piece of crud/rust/debris got caught between the brake dic and the hub when the wheels were replaced? I say this because the brake disc are ultimately held in place by the wheel nuts/bolts but when the wheel is removed the disc may be free to move if the spring clip retainer on one of the studs has been destroyed and not replaced on a previous intervention. This would not allow the wheel and more importantly the disc to sit true and would be most noticeable especially when the pads come into play.
Like I said just a brain fart!
Just had a brain fart moment about this problem and could it be something as simple as a piece of crud/rust/debris got caught between the brake dic and the hub when the wheels were replaced? I say this because the brake disc are ultimately held in place by the wheel nuts/bolts but when the wheel is removed the disc may be free to move if the spring clip retainer on one of the studs has been destroyed and not replaced on a previous intervention. This would not allow the wheel and more importantly the disc to sit true and would be most noticeable especially when the pads come into play.
Like I said just a brain fart!
Paul m.
This made me believe that the wheels have been removed and the discs possibly disturbed recently,?
"My Mk3 2.2 TDCi is suffering with a judder from the front. It's there at 70mph, but only slightly, and I've had the wheels recently re-balanced, so shouldn't be that."
This made me believe that the wheels have been removed and the discs possibly disturbed recently,?
"My Mk3 2.2 TDCi is suffering with a judder from the front. It's there at 70mph, but only slightly, and I've had the wheels recently re-balanced, so shouldn't be that."
Paul m.
This little beauty springs to mind!
It wouldn't come off with being hit with a hammer or lump hammer. I ground the flat face off and it came off with the most gentle nudge rom a chisel. There was NO rust at all on the rear face to stuck it to the hub.
Just FYI if you're changing your brakes I've used Pagid discs and pads a few times without any issue at all. No more dust or reduction is braking performance versus ford parts.
Just had a brain fart moment about this problem and could it be something as simple as a piece of crud/rust/debris got caught between the brake dic and the hub when the wheels were replaced? I say this because the brake disc are ultimately held in place by the wheel nuts/bolts but when the wheel is removed the disc may be free to move if the spring clip retainer on one of the studs has been destroyed and not replaced on a previous intervention. This would not allow the wheel and more importantly the disc to sit true and would be most noticeable especially when the pads come into play.
Like I said just a brain fart!
Um... Spring clip retainer on one of the studs? I don't think I've ever seen such a thing.
Also, I see what you mean about stuff getting behind the disc, but this is reoccurring problem. I do high mileage so replace tyres every six months or so, so break dust and road dirt could get behind the disc. But this is probably the third set of discs in three years.
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