14 replies to this topic

[peterx666]

I have tinted windows in the back of my s-Max titanium and am finding the standard reversing lights just dont give enough light to see

Are there more powerful bulbs around - what the maximum I can use?

What about LED bulbs do they give any advantage?

Help appreciated

pete

[peterx666]

Has no body any ideas?


its a bit dodgy not being able to see out of the back at night!!


pete

[B1ggsy]

 peterx666, on 14 December 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

Has no body any ideas?


its a bit dodgy not being able to see out of the back at night!!


pete

[B1ggsy]

 peterx666, on 14 December 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

Has no body any ideas?


its a bit dodgy not being able to see out of the back at night!!


pete

How about fitting some ultra bright white LED strips on the rear of the car (maybe near or under/over the bumper so they are discrete) and wiring them up to the reversing lights. When you select reverse the normail lights will come on and so will the extra LED lights thus giving you more light to reverse with.

Alternatively go the route i had on my old works van and buy yourself some HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE 500watt rally stle lamps and fixing then to the rear, this would light Wembley up like it was daylight even at midnight!!!!!!!!!

[peterx666]

 B1ggsy, on 14 December 2011 - 11:37 PM, said:

 peterx666, on 14 December 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

Has no body any ideas?


its a bit dodgy not being able to see out of the back at night!!


pete

How about fitting some ultra bright white LED strips on the rear of the car (maybe near or under/over the bumper so they are discrete) and wiring them up to the reversing lights. When you select reverse the normail lights will come on and so will the extra LED lights thus giving you more light to reverse with.

Alternatively go the route i had on my old works van and buy yourself some HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE 500watt rally stle lamps and fixing then to the rear, this would light Wembley up like it was daylight even at midnight!!!!!!!!!

Will the led strips be bright enough? Where can you get them?

The rally lights might look a bit scrappy on a new car - still it may be worth a look for at the moment I am relying on my parking bleepers in the main

The bulb is a P21W 21w looked on ebay for a p55w but cant find anything and all the other options like to ones with a bleeper built in are all on 21W - cant thing a larger wattage would cook the mounting or wires or anything as these are usually over - engineered?


Thanks for the input - for a while there I thought no - one was going to help me

Much appreciated
Pete

[4titx]

We are picking up a couple of Titanium Fiestas on Friday, and the only thing that lets the car down and IMO all the Ford higher spec range, is the dark tinted windows which are way over the top and totally unnecessary anyway. The 07 plate Fiestas the above are replacing, have tinted glass all round and the rear ones are slightly darker than the front but not enough to reduce visibility to make you concerned.

In anticipation of some serious earache when the drivers of these cars try and reverse in the dark with them, I’ve put together in my own imitable style some serious LED replacements. Not sure about the S max, but the new Fiesta seems to have a W16W lamp which is a 16 watt lamp so its 25% lower output than the 21W of the norm. So, the lower lamp output along with the dark tints makes for great reversing in the dark. This is probably another oversight or ‘ignore the facts’ that Ford design and development have simply shoved out because surely the test drivers noticed this.

So until we have the cars here on Friday and I see what style I can make the LED assembly to maximise use of the reflector which is designed for the capless W16W, I wont have a solution.

What lamp is used in the reserving lamp in the S Max?

I’ve not replaced the reversing lamps in the Mondeo as I can quite adequately see, even though replacing them with decent LED assemblies will give me much more light.

[4titx]

Yes Pete, you’ve identified the correct LEDs, but you will find that most of the LEDs and probably the ones you have tried are SMD types, and I going to insult the suppliers by saying these are cheap end. The real issue is that a single decent SMD LED will cost as much as the whole lamp assembly of the type you will see available on the market. The ones that are available are low power devices, assembled in multiples as a lamp, but quite often are not deigned to operate at the elevated temperatures that may occur when the LEDs are operated for any length of time.

Regards operating voltage, that’s easily overcome in several ways. You mention voltage, its actually the current through the LED that is critical and the current is proportional to the voltage across the LED so yes the applied voltage to a device has an effect on the LED operating lifetime etc.

To overcome the above, simply placing a resistor in series with the LED will provide current limiting, the problem here being that if you want maximum light from the LED at its operating current the resistor has to be chosen to limit the current at engine running voltage, which can be anything from13.8 to almost 15V. Consequently the LED light output will not be maximum when engine is not running and there is 12V applied. Also, as I mentioned above temperature is a limiting factor, and the LED and the series resistor will produce heat and if the LED and resistor are placed in the same package the combined heat produced may have a serious adverse effect on the LED lifetime.

The best way to power LEDs is with a constant current supply, which when designed correctly provides maximum operating current whether engine is running or not. Even the constant current circuit will produce some heat so that has to be taken into consideration too if its incorporated in the lamp package.

The use of decent SMD LEDs which can be run at elevated temperatures allows the above to be achieved providing heat is removed but then you hit the obstacle of confined access and environment for the replacement LED device and that’s where the cost come in, in incorporating some method of removing heat.

So, the cheap LEDs that are available, will work exactly as designed, and provide a white light replacement but unless your paying upwards of maybe £50 for a replacement LED for your 21W lamp, you wont exactly see any improvement apart from a whiter light.

Like my sidelight/DRL, the actual sidelight lampholder is replaced so that the heat from the LED when running 3 Watts can be dispersed.

Going back to the reversing lamps. The Fiesta MK7 uses the 16W lamp but surprisingly seem just about adequate for reversing with through the tinted rear window but yes could be better. The problem here being that a replacement LED has to fit in a wedge type aperture though there is plenty of room in reflector area. In the case of P21W lamp the opening is much larger so a decent LED assembly can be made to fit in there, but £50 for a lamp is not going to pull may customers. The far east has yet to make high power LED assembles though some are trying with versions that have large heatsinks for the LEDs, but as direct replacements still loose lots for power and produce heat in the current limiting circuit.

[peterx666]

 4titx, on 27 December 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

Yes Pete, you’ve identified the correct LEDs, but you will find that most of the LEDs and probably the ones you have tried are SMD types, and I going to insult the suppliers by saying these are cheap end. The real issue is that a single decent SMD LED will cost as much as the whole lamp assembly of the type you will see available on the market. The ones that are available are low power devices, assembled in multiples as a lamp, but quite often are not deigned to operate at the elevated temperatures that may occur when the LEDs are operated for any length of time.

Regards operating voltage, that’s easily overcome in several ways. You mention voltage, its actually the current through the LED that is critical and the current is proportional to the voltage across the LED so yes the applied voltage to a device has an effect on the LED operating lifetime etc.

To overcome the above, simply placing a resistor in series with the LED will provide current limiting, the problem here being that if you want maximum light from the LED at its operating current the resistor has to be chosen to limit the current at engine running voltage, which can be anything from13.8 to almost 15V. Consequently the LED light output will not be maximum when engine is not running and there is 12V applied. Also, as I mentioned above temperature is a limiting factor, and the LED and the series resistor will produce heat and if the LED and resistor are placed in the same package the combined heat produced may have a serious adverse effect on the LED lifetime.

The best way to power LEDs is with a constant current supply, which when designed correctly provides maximum operating current whether engine is running or not. Even the constant current circuit will produce some heat so that has to be taken into consideration too if its incorporated in the lamp package.

The use of decent SMD LEDs which can be run at elevated temperatures allows the above to be achieved providing heat is removed but then you hit the obstacle of confined access and environment for the replacement LED device and that’s where the cost come in, in incorporating some method of removing heat.

So, the cheap LEDs that are available, will work exactly as designed, and provide a white light replacement but unless your paying upwards of maybe £50 for a replacement LED for your 21W lamp, you wont exactly see any improvement apart from a whiter light.

Like my sidelight/DRL, the actual sidelight lampholder is replaced so that the heat from the LED when running 3 Watts can be dispersed.

Going back to the reversing lamps. The Fiesta MK7 uses the 16W lamp but surprisingly seem just about adequate for reversing with through the tinted rear window but yes could be better. The problem here being that a replacement LED has to fit in a wedge type aperture though there is plenty of room in reflector area. In the case of P21W lamp the opening is much larger so a decent LED assembly can be made to fit in there, but £50 for a lamp is not going to pull may customers. The far east has yet to make high power LED assembles though some are trying with versions that have large heatsinks for the LEDs, but as direct replacements still loose lots for power and produce heat in the current limiting circuit.

thanks Phil that is useful info

Seen SMDs on Ebay with 180 elements - surely they must be brighter? also if one element blows with the rest carry on? They are only about £2.00 each

The resistor thing is worrying and ultimatly may put me off ........ but for £2 may be worth a punt?

pete

[52graphite]

 4titx, on 27 December 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

The real issue is that a single decent SMD LED will cost as much as the whole lamp assembly of the type you will see available on the market. The ones that are available are low power devices, assembled in multiples as a lamp, but quite often are not deigned to operate at the elevated temperatures that may occur when the LEDs are operated for any length of time.

 4titx, on 27 December 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

So, the cheap LEDs that are available, will work exactly as designed, and provide a white light replacement but unless your paying upwards of maybe £50 for a replacement LED for your 21W lamp, you wont exactly see any improvement apart from a whiter light.

 peterx666, on 04 January 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Seen SMDs on Ebay with 180 elements - surely they must be brighter? also if one element blows with the rest carry on? They are only about £2.00 each

(...) for £2 may be worth a punt?

http://en.wikipedia....i/False_economy

Take out the assembly and substrate costs, and you're at less than 1p per LED. You're wasting your time and money trying these, which won't get close to the output from a 21W filament bulb. As Phil says, decent LEDs cost money. Cheap ones don't put out as much light, and don't last as long. Take a look at Phil's threads on his DRLs and you'll see how to do LED bulb replacements properly.

[peterx666]

 52graphite, on 04 January 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

 4titx, on 27 December 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

The real issue is that a single decent SMD LED will cost as much as the whole lamp assembly of the type you will see available on the market. The ones that are available are low power devices, assembled in multiples as a lamp, but quite often are not deigned to operate at the elevated temperatures that may occur when the LEDs are operated for any length of time.

 4titx, on 27 December 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

So, the cheap LEDs that are available, will work exactly as designed, and provide a white light replacement but unless your paying upwards of maybe £50 for a replacement LED for your 21W lamp, you wont exactly see any improvement apart from a whiter light.

 peterx666, on 04 January 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Seen SMDs on Ebay with 180 elements - surely they must be brighter? also if one element blows with the rest carry on? They are only about £2.00 each

(...) for £2 may be worth a punt?

http://en.wikipedia....i/False_economy

Oh dear looks like fitting a huge spotlight to the back of my pride and joy!

Someone suggested to me putting the fog lights on whilst reversing - made little difference

someone else suggested putting the hazard waring lights on - this helps but confusing with all the flashing!

Interesting? Thought the tinted windows were a good idea when I saw them (people cant look at you shopping on the loading area/back seat) - never thought of this problem - seems the only way is to use the side mirrors and hope no body is in the blind spots! (little kids should not be out after dark anyway!! )


Put extra red reflectors on the back so people can see me - will have to rely on that and the mirrors


Thanks for all the input tho - most enlightening!


pete





Take out the assembly and substrate costs, and you're at less than 1p per LED. You're wasting your time and money trying these, which won't get close to the output from a 21W filament bulb. As Phil says, decent LEDs cost money. Cheap ones don't put out as much light, and don't last as long. Take a look at Phil's threads on his DRLs and you'll see how to do LED bulb replacements properly.

[granada28]

use the mirrors ,head out of the window ,or how about a rear mounted camera and dash monitor as used on trucks ?

[jaysback]

Not sure on the life expectancy of these or if they are can-bus ready.
You guys know your stuff with LED's so I await a flaming. lol.

[siruncle]

rear mount cam is not such a silly idea though...

[jaysback]

Rear cam may be an issue with the headunit in the smax, not sure what is in there and if its possible to add one to it?

[Nick]

The bulbs on the S-max are P21W.

The LED lights dont give any more light - tried them on my rear boot loading bay bulb - they are white but no more light was given out

Have heard that SMD is the way to go... somebody said

"SMD is a term used when talking about the miniaturisation of electronic components. Instead of mounting the component through the circuit board and soldering it to the copper side, the component is mounted and soldered directly to the copper side. The advantages to this is that the component can be made smaller and components can be placed on both sides of the circuit board hence the name surface mount device (SMD).
A single LED is not very bright on it's own, but pack 10, 20, 50 or even 100 led's together in a small space and you have a very bright light. To get the LED's close together, surface mount LEDs are used and to make a bulb shape the LEDs are arranged as a 4, 6 or 8 sided tower with more LEDs on top.
The disadvantage of all LEDs is that they are very sensitive to over voltage and usually do not last very long if they are not voltage regulated.
The SMD LED towers I had in my sidelights lasted less than 6 months so I won't be replacing them again with LED, but were around 3 times brighter than the xenon white filament bulbs I am now using."

So the SMD's are brighter but they blow!

The S-Max also has a sensor system

"A standard LED needs typically 2.5v to work. Simple LED circuits use a resistor to step down the 12v to 2.5v but when the smart charge raises the alternator voltage to 18v, the voltage at the LED will also rise above it's threshold causing the LED to be permanently destroyed. In a tower of LED's usually just a few LED's blow giving a reduced light output.

External bulbs in the S-Max (apart from the sidelights) are on a bulb protection circuit which detects when the bulb filament has blown. This detection circuit does not work with LED's and so the car does reject them. To bypass this either a large resistor has to used or more favourably LED's with built in CAN BUS circuitry that fool the car into thinking it has a standard filament bulb fitted."