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MEG Corporal
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801 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
today i put this stuff in the eng. On the bottle was written syntetic technology so i bought it and changed it. A few hours i went in the same shop to check for something else and in the other room i saw the same yellow bottle with the same spec 5w-30 but on the label instead of the synt techno was written semi-syntetic.
Am i in trouble?
 

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Now in the Far East...
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2,727 Posts
you shouldn't be

As long as it meets the standard (5W30 i believe, coz i drive a TD which uses 5W30) it should be fine

Just make sure that on the package it states the standard it meets

SAE 5W30 API/SG/CD , as there are some cheap ones i have seen which doesn't meet this standard and still being labelled the same way as if it does.

Synthetic or Semi-Synthetic, doesn't matter too much i believe if it meets the standard, and don't forget to change the oil / filter frequently, which makes more difference than the oil quality (of course, make sure that the oil meets the spec!)
 

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MEG Corporal
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801 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
On the bottom line of both labels was a long list of specs A1 ...... blah blah. On the other bottle was a note "for zetec engines".
Today was a bit colder than before and it looked like the oil was a bit thicker than the usual castrol magatec i use.
However i always change it at every 5k miles(max 2 months) regardless (which is a bit boring).
 

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MEG Corporal
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801 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
on the bottle front label:
ACEA A1 B1 API SL CF
and on the back:
the same letters + Ford WSS-M2C913-B
+ the usual that is suitable for zetec blah blah
 

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MEG Corporal
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866 Posts
SDR said:
on the bottle front label:
ACEA A1 B1 API SL CF
and on the back:
the same letters + Ford WSS-M2C913-B
+ the usual that is suitable for zetec blah blah
Its the ACEA A1/B1 spec thats relevant. It means that the oil you bought is a basic economy oil. It is no better than the standard Ford Formula E oil. Is is not a full synthetic oil (hence the ambigious "synthetic technology" term). If you want a better oil, look for the ACEA A3 spec.
 

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MEG Corporal
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801 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
cool!
so no harm done yet :D
i'll think again about in a month or two
:thankyousign:
 

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Little Megger
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58 Posts
vendee said:
SDR said:
on the bottle front label:
ACEA A1 B1 API SL CF
and on the back:
the same letters + Ford WSS-M2C913-B
+ the usual that is suitable for zetec blah blah
Its the ACEA A1/B1 spec thats relevant. It means that the oil you bought is a basic economy oil. It is no better than the standard Ford Formula E oil. Is is not a full synthetic oil (hence the ambigious "synthetic technology" term). If you want a better oil, look for the ACEA A3 spec.
Not strictly true ( yes, the A1/B1 bit is ok ) - API Ratings are American - alphabetical and easy to understand, but not very defining ( there is no long drain / performance / diesel Passenger car - basic mineral and fully syn can both be same API rating ) - In the ACEA ratings, A2/B2 ( A is petrol B is diesel ) is the "basic" - ie, standard oil drain, standard performance - the A1/B1 is standard drain, fuel efficient - it's got a lower HTHS value ( High temperature High shear value ) which means that is should only be used in engines designed to use that spec oil ( can be thin at high temperatures so not all engines can use this type of oil )
A3/B3 means extended drain capability, improved performance, but not fuel efficient. You can get A3/B3 on a bog standard 15W-40 mineral oil as well as an all singing all dancing Fully synthetic 0W-30 - so just looking for A3 will get you nowhere.

There is also a B4 ( Direct injection diesel only normally found on fully synthetic) and an A5/B5 which is a combination of the fuel efficient A1/B1 spec combined with the Performance / Long drain capability of an A3/B3 - but A5/B5 is also a low HTHS oil so can only be used in certain engines ( Volvo D5 - new Freelander II petrol ) and of course the new generation of Low SAPS products for diesel particulate filter vehicles ( C1/C2/C3 ) - again normally fully synthetics but not seen on Fords yet as they don't seem to be playing the DPF game for Euro 4 compliance.
The important spec is the Ford one - WSS M2C913B - this is a semi synthetic oil to approximately A1/B1 spec ( which most manufacturers base their Ford spec oil on to meet performance requirements)
Most oil companies do a 5W-30 semi synthetic 913B/A1/B1 oil which is suitable for Ford engines from 1998 onward ( normally says so on the pack ) - that is the ONLY spec Ford list and essential for warranty. Don't confuse this with the latest VW LongLife oil which is also a 5W-30, but fully synthetic. Always read the label to see that it meets the spec - if it's a semi syn with A1/B1 / 913B then it should be ok.
Ford Formula E is an A1/B1 913B semi syn 5W-30 - Ford do not recommend fully synthetic oil - not to say you cant use a 0W-30 fully syn outside warranty - but you won't get the fuel efficiency of the Semi Synthetic.

Hope that helps a bit
 

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MEG Corporal
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866 Posts
spokey said:
Hope that helps a bit
It is very infomative thanks. I do know that ACEA A1/B1 is a economy oil and A3/B3 is extendend drain but I'm not sure how much difference the A1/B1 makes to economy. I've used both and I notice no difference (I do keep accurate mpg records). I would say that the advantages of extended drain outwiegh the supposed economy. When I used A1/B1 I used to change at half the recommneded interval. With the A3/B3 I keep it in the full term. Financially this better for me because as I said, I don't seem to get less mpg with the A3/B3.
 

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Little Megger
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58 Posts
vendee said:
spokey said:
Hope that helps a bit
It is very infomative thanks. I do know that ACEA A1/B1 is a economy oil and A3/B3 is extendend drain but I'm not sure how much difference the A1/B1 makes to economy. I've used both and I notice no difference (I do keep accurate mpg records). I would say that the advantages of extended drain outwiegh the supposed economy. When I used A1/B1 I used to change at half the recommneded interval. With the A3/B3 I keep it in the full term. Financially this better for me because as I said, I don't seem to get less mpg with the A3/B3.
What A3/B3 oil are you using ( viscosity ? ) another reason Ford went for a 5W-30 was to combat problems with the top ends. There are no advanteges of extended drain with Fords - You'll get exactly the same oil drain intervals out of the A1/B1 product than you do the A3/B3 ( which bear in mind will not meet the Ford specification ) as Ford don't practice extended drain intervals. Changing at half recommended intervals is great for the oil companies, but not necessary unless you are doing lots of short runs ( even then you probably don't need to as the oil drain interval will be base on worse case scenario ). Todays semi synthetics will run for longer than 12K, you change the oil because it's dirty, not worn out.

Cheers
 

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MEG Corporal
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866 Posts
spokey said:
What A3/B3 oil are you using ( viscosity ? ) another reason Ford went for a 5W-30 was to combat problems with the top ends. There are no advanteges of extended drain with Fords - You'll get exactly the same oil drain intervals out of the A1/B1 product than you do the A3/B3 ( which bear in mind will not meet the Ford specification ) as Ford don't practice extended drain intervals. Changing at half recommended intervals is great for the oil companies, but not necessary unless you are doing lots of short runs ( even then you probably don't need to as the oil drain interval will be base on worse case scenario ). Todays semi synthetics will run for longer than 12K, you change the oil because it's dirty, not worn out.

Cheers
I use the correct viscosity obviously ;)
The problems with sticking valves which precipitated the change to 5w-30 was specific only to the silvertops with hydraulic lifters. The blacktops with their solid lifters are not affected. Both my cars have blacktop engines.

As to draining oil at half recommended interval.... well thats a matter personal choice. I'm sure most engines will easily go to 100k miles with 12k oil changes but if like me you have owned the car from new and hope to keep it to 200k+ miles then it may be worth it. Only time will tell. I've read some reports that Ford's Formula E oil may be marginal on protection at 12k.

I've been using Millers oils on and off for 15 years. They used to offer a great anylisis service where you sent off a sample of your oil and they sent you back a lab report telling you how much it had deteriorated.

The other thing to remember is that a lot of mineral oils are now calling themselves "semi-synthetic" or "syntheticaly engineered". Its the same oil but with a fancy title.
 

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Little Megger
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58 Posts
A3/B3 5W-30 ? who does one of them then ;)

As you it's say personal preference regarding oil change intervals - will pay dividends for you in the long run hopefully - some people like to change them early, some people let them go to the manufacturers periods - keeping the oil clean is the key.
Interesting comment about minerals - I think you mean some synthetic oils being formulated from Group III basestocks ( very highly refined and hydrotreated mineral oils ) instead of PAO ( very very highly refined mineral oils ) - mineral, semi synthetic and fully synthetic all come from the same crude oil - just that the waxes and inpurities which restrict the performance are taken out during the refining process - interestingly, a very good quality Group III can outperform a poor quality POA ( Polyalphaolefin ) Both Group III and PAO are classed as "synthetic "
Semi synthetics are a blend of basic mineral and fully synthetic base stocks - you get better performance characteristics, but with a cost benefit.
The performance characteristics are defined by the specifications - this is the minimum criteria the oil must meet - so if it says A1/B1 and that needs a semi synthetic formulation to provide the performance, then you won't see that spec on a mineral oil. Then again - you can see A3/B3 on a 15W-40 mineral oil - and also a Fully synthetic - so you could argue it's an easier test? - however, what you won't see on the lesser oils are the OEM specifications as these are a lot more subjective and need specific oils, mostly PAO synthetic nowadays to pass the required engine test criteria ...
Out of curiosity, and off the subject - what mileage should you change the cam belt on a black top ?

forgot to say - oil samples - not really that useful unless you are using them for trend analysis ( which means taking a sample every 2K or something ) - you can use them just before you change the oil I suppose, but all that will normally tell you is if the oil is still fit for service - good company to use - about £15 a sample -
ALcontrol Conwy
Unit 6
Parc Caer Seion
Conwy
LL32 8FA
Tel: 01492 574750
Fax: 01492 574778

Cheers
 

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MEG Corporal
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866 Posts
spokey said:
A3/B3 5W-30 ? who does one of them then ;)
Millers oils and Morris oils are a couple.

Out of curiosity, and off the subject - what mileage should you change the cam belt on a black top ?
Officially its 100k miles but the tensioners are known to fail before that. Conventional wisdom is that 75k is safer.
 

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Little Megger
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58 Posts
cheers - thought it was 80 ... mines done 83, stick or twist ... ? :whistling:

Millers - Mmmmm ;) is it XXS 5W-30 ?
API SL/CF
ACEA A3,B3
Ford Zetec engine oil specification (5w30)
Mercedes Benz 229.1
VW 500.00, 505.00, 505.01
Porsche

Interesting claims there - I thought to get the Ford approval you needed an HTHS value of 2.9 ( A1/B1 for Ford 913B spec ) and A3/B3 is normally around 3.5 so it wouldn't meet the Ford requirement, especially for warranty ?
Also - they claim 505 01 - this a specific VW spec for the PD engine - special high lubricity oil and is only met by a fully synthetic 5W-40 - also, Porsche? they don't approve XW-30 grades as they are too thin, they normally insist on a XW-40 minimum - and the MB 229.1 spec is normally met by a 10W-40 semi synthetic ?

I'll have a look into it - :ponder:
 

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Little Megger
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58 Posts
You can get away with the 5W-30 505 01 and 229.1, but think you'll find the Millers 5W-30 is now an A1/B1 ( to meet the Ford spec ) and you won't see Porsche approval ( very naughty ) :whistling:

Still good oil though :L
 

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MEG Corporal
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866 Posts
spokey said:
cheers - thought it was 80 ... mines done 83, stick or twist ... ? :whistling:
I'd change it now. You might get away with it but if you don't it will be expensive.
 

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MEG Corporal
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866 Posts
spokey said:
You can get away with the 5W-30 505 01 and 229.1, but think you'll find the Millers 5W-30 is now an A1/B1 ( to meet the Ford spec ) and you won't see Porsche approval ( very naughty ) :whistling:

Still good oil though :L
Its definately A3/B3. I've got a recent batch of it in my garage and Millers web site still list it as a A3/B3 oil. Oh and the Porsche approval is there. Here's the spec pulled from their site:-

Performance Profile
API SL/CF
ACEA A3,B3
Ford Zetec engine oil specification (5w30)
Mercedes Benz 229.1
VW 500.00, 505.00, 505.01
Porsche

Not bad for £19/5 litres. You pay more than that for Castrol Magnacrap.
 

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Little Megger
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58 Posts
vendee said:
spokey said:
You can get away with the 5W-30 505 01 and 229.1, but think you'll find the Millers 5W-30 is now an A1/B1 ( to meet the Ford spec ) and you won't see Porsche approval ( very naughty ) :whistling:

Still good oil though :L
Its definately A3/B3. I've got a recent batch of it in my garage and Millers web site still list it as a A3/B3 oil. Oh and the Porsche approval is there. Here's the spec pulled from their site:-

Performance Profile
API SL/CF
ACEA A3,B3
Ford Zetec engine oil specification (5w30)
Mercedes Benz 229.1
VW 500.00, 505.00, 505.01
Porsche

Not bad for £19/5 litres. You pay more than that for Castrol Magnacrap.
Aye - it probably was ... ;) and the website is out of date - expect that ( and the pack labels) to be changing soon for the exact reasons I mentioned above .. :D :whistling:
Magnatec's good oil - what do you have against it? I just use the Ford Formula E in mine :L
 

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MEG Corporal
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866 Posts
I'm sorry but if the oil met ACEA A3/B3 standard last month, how can it not meet it now? The standard itself hasn't changed.

As for Magnatec, its the same spec as Formula E and the Ford oil is up to half the price. Castrol spend loads on glossy adverts and a lot of people think that Magnatec is the best oil you can buy but as you say, Formula E is just as good..... and cheaper.
 

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Little Megger
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58 Posts
vendee said:
I'm sorry but if the oil met ACEA A3/B3 standard last month, how can it not meet it now? The standard itself hasn't changed.

As for Magnatec, its the same spec as Formula E and the Ford oil is up to half the price. Castrol spend loads on glossy adverts and a lot of people think that Magnatec is the best oil you can buy but as you say, Formula E is just as good..... and cheaper.
I think you'll probably find that they have changed the formulation / specification to comply with the A1/B1 913B spec so that it can be used in Fords without any warranty issues - like I said, you can't get Ford 913B specification with an A3/B3 oil so if you used the Millers stuff in a Ford under warranty and it went bang - your warranty would go with it unless Millers wanted to fight Ford warranty people.
The change of spec could have been done a few months ago, or fairly recently - depends on how fast the stock moves in the shop. The standard hasn't changed as you say, but Millers shouldn't really be claiming it can be used in Fords in it A3/B3 specification formulation. They probably claimed it for Fords based on the 5W-30 viscosity?, but it's a sticky wicket to play - and they certainly won't be claiming Porsche approval anymore.
Magnatec is very good quality oil and you won't find the same quality base stocks or the patented ester additive ( the "magnetic" bit ) in the Formula E ( Magnatec has to meet other manufacturers specifications, the Formula E only needs to meet the Ford one ) it's a bit like Supermarket petrol and branded petrol - and I'm a tight arse ;)

:D
 
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