Ford Automobiles Forum banner

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
665 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm planning on sorting my flaps, I'd rather replace with new and fix properly rather than remove the flaps completely.

I have a read a bunch on this forum, I have read through most of the stickies, and the wiki articles where there's a lot of great info but much is disparate and hard to consolidate.

I understand there is either revised flaps or a revised intake manifold (?).

With that in mind I have a 2002 motor. My oil separator / PCV hose is the old 13 mm OD rather than the new (apparently 19 mm).

If I buy new flaps, the following questions occur to me:

  • Will the 'revised' flaps fit any year manifold or was there a change to the actual manifold design that I should upgrade?
  • The flap kits I can find include only the flaps and their brackets for about £40, or £65 with gaskets*. But the actuator rod seems to be something that fails also; I haven't yet checked mine, but is the rod available separately? Anyone know a part #?
  • If I replace the oil separator / PCV hose and maybe PCV valve, will the new diameter hose fit the manifold and is the valve the same (i.e. is the internal diameter of the hose unchanged I guess).
  • * This has to be the worst value in parts I've come across in my Ford-fixing time. Anyone know of better pricing?

Who knows?
 

·
Go On.....I'm All Ears...
Joined
·
1,943 Posts
Ford do not have the 3.5mm square section 395mm long metal bar as spare part, you have to buy the complete inlet manifold! £££'s
If I were you (and I have) I would do the flap removal and run you car with no flaps and 'see' how you get on before spending £££'s on parts that have failed and will fail again and in my case I was happy with how the car continued to run and was also well pleased when it passed it's emissions testing.

Paul m.
 

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
665 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
So is the rod just a square bar as you describe? From photos I can find it seems as much, although it's usually pictured in pieces :) - are you suggesting simple stock cut to length with no extra work would suffice? Is there no machining done at the actuator end?

I wonder why it fails in the 1st place, does it corrode - can't imagine it would wear against plastic. Some decent grade of stainless steel would do the job I expect?
 

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
2,885 Posts
think you may find the orange coloured flaps on yours if original, they swapped to the black thicker collar ones.

i will be suprised if the bar shows no sign of wear if original, i had to replace flaps in mine as the car didnt like it with no flaps, but most run fine. just turned the bar over and flipped it around so it wouldnt wear in the same place, gave it a good test first though to make sure it was strong enough.
 

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
665 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the responses. Got it all off today, flaps are the black ones so must have been replaced previously. They are in better condition than I thought they might be. Some movement on the outside one where it's definitely worn, presumably enough to generate the rattling I had thought was the issue to begin with. So will replace. The rod is re-usable.

Other issue - my PCV / oil separator hose is stuffed, and I will also replace the PCV valve while I have access to it. Does anyone know which part #s I need?

I am looking here: http://autopartmaster.com/en/?action=catalog_show&cat=ford&t_id=15145&id_pic=21453

which has part #s but I am confused by the multiple date options, do I want the parts that match my 2002 or rather just go for the latest?

Will the latest hose and valve # fit the 2002 oil separator and intake manifold respectively?

IMAG0253.jpg

IMAG0252.jpg

IMAG0255.jpg
 

Attachments

·
Go On.....I'm All Ears...
Joined
·
1,943 Posts
The later PCV hose from oil separator to inlet manifold is a larger diameter than the early ones and because of this the later ones are more prone to failure as they are able to'flex' more when under vacuum/pressure when in use, I would not expect to two to be interchangeable as the manifold/separator spigots will be different accordingly. Might be able to source a performance silicon after market pipe if your lucky as opposed to changing oil separator etc.

Paul m.
 

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
665 Posts

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
2,885 Posts
i didnt just cleaned all, just be careful doing the separator back up, just nick up the bolts and dont go to mad or it will crack (10nm) if your wrench goes that low.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
19,001 Posts
By the way found this link more reliable: http://eucatparts.com/?action=cat_ford_part&s_id_part=15105&s_id_model=88

Okay will order the parts that match the car. Thanks Paul.

By the way while I'm at it, if I pull off the oil separator body (not just the PCV valve) just to inspect/clean it, would I need to replace its gasket?
handy link, i use it quite a lot, hover over the ? columns for application.

Out of all the flaps posts, i reckon i've seen about 2 or 3 that removed the flaps and had issues afterwards, but the 2 or 3 are outweighed by at least 10-1 where there has been no effect whatsoever.
If you take the inlet manifold off a zetec, dohc or pinto engine (the 3 predecessors of the duratec) you will find no flaps. If i owned a mk3, the flaps and rod would be decorating the bottom of my wheelie bin by the following sunday after purchase.

Either way, hope all goes (or went, lol) well :L
 

·
Click4 - What will you Click4 today?
Joined
·
1,481 Posts
I have to say, no offence, I hate that term no effect whatsoever.

Should be writing no noticeable effect whatsoever instead.

Only way you are going to know no effect whatsoever is with flow and engine cell dyno testing with and without... Something ford have probably done already which is why they installed the flaps in first place because it solved something they perceived as a problem and nobody is qualified other than ford to conclusively say the engine is better off without them... Was designed with them, ford don't spend money designing, developing and testing things which are useless to an engine... It's too expensive... And makes engine more expensive to make also which doesn't fit in with fords money saving.

Yes people post that engine runs fine without them and anybody who wants to run without them also up to them... But nobody other than ford it's designers and testers are qualified to make the judgement that the engine is better without them.

It's a personal opinion and it's an individual choice.

But far too many people are removing them on the say so of people not qualified to make a judgement saying engine runs fine without them... Rather than weighing up pros, cons and making an informed descision for themselves.

I'm sure this post will annoy some people, but nobody on the Internet has spent the millions ford did testing and development the engine and nobody outside of ford has that test data to look at.

Just bear in mind that ford won't spend millions designing and testing useless features on a car or powertrain.
 

·
Go On.....I'm All Ears...
Joined
·
1,943 Posts
My mkIII is now 15 years old and as far as ford as a company is concerned I don't think they have as much interest in the running (or otherwise!) of my car as much as I do, what I mean is, as the years/miles have clocked up on this car they have taken their toll, ie it ain't gonna win any 0-60 races and it was never gonna get 50+ mpg, so the fact that I can/have removed an internal engine component (one known to fail and destroy a perfectly good car) without, to my layman senses, any negative results then I am satisfied and the car can go on and survive a lot longer.

Yes your right ford ain't gonna be putting parts in for fun, they gotta earn their keep, but when the car gets to be 10-15 years old and it is 'not supported' shall we say by its manufacturer then the end user has got to make choices/compromises with regards to the work done/money spent on keeping the product operational with information gleaned from other users in the same boat!

Paul m.
 

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
665 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have to say, no offence, I hate that term no effect whatsoever.

Should be writing no noticeable effect whatsoever instead.

Only way you are going to know no effect whatsoever is with flow and engine cell dyno testing with and without... Something ford have probably done already which is why they installed the flaps in first place because it solved something they perceived as a problem and nobody is qualified other than ford to conclusively say the engine is better off without them... Was designed with them, ford don't spend money designing, developing and testing things which are useless to an engine... It's too expensive... And makes engine more expensive to make also which doesn't fit in with fords money saving.

Yes people post that engine runs fine without them and anybody who wants to run without them also up to them... But nobody other than ford it's designers and testers are qualified to make the judgement that the engine is better without them.
Well said. I have waited til inspecting my flaps before commenting on this issue.

I agree things are put there for a reason. The flaps apparently assist low rpm air flow, aid spark, and do something for emissions and/or low end power.

I already noticed, with the vacuum hose to the flaps actuator disconnected, that the engine gives a worrying kick when applying power from idle. That's to say, from an idle-cruise, the engine jolts when the accelerator is touched. Feels a bit like a gear change. I have seen one other mention of this symptom on this forum. It's drivable but would annoy me and I wonder if it's doing harm. I assume this is something to do with the different air flow.

Then there are the other less obvious issues: fuel economy, are the plugs and leads being stressed (in which case avoiding the cost of replacing flaps might be a false economy), etc.

So, in my case, it turns out the flaps have been replaced at some point by the previous owner, and I estimate that they have done about 100,000 km. There is wear but I would say they're a ways from failure. Since the rod is re-usable, replacing the flaps at a cost of about 35 GBP is acceptable to maintain as-designed engine performance.

I will rotate the rod which will give me until-next-time life, at which point it will presumably be worn out. This is the most annoying part of this problem in my view, the 3.5 mm square steel being used is clearly far too soft. I had a brief look at stainless stock online but the closest I can find is 4 mm square bar, and then it's still just 304 or 316 which again will be too soft. With more effort it may be possible to find some harder duplex grade in the right size, that's a project for next time.

Now if the entire manifold needed replacing, because of the need for a new rod or other damage, the cost might make it a silly proposition on a 15 yr old Mondy, vis-a-vis going flapless and accepting the out-of-design air flow, so Paul definitely has a point there.
 

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
665 Posts
Looking more closely at the way the rod works, it is supported by cylindrical bushings between intakes 1-2 and 3-4. Noticeably there is not one between 2-3. Parts #10 in this diagram:

image.asp@atid=32960.jpg


Photo of the bushing part:

480.jpg


When I put my rod through the existing bushings, there is a little movement allowed by them. I assume it is more than design, and that this is actually the root cause of the problem.

So long as the bushings are doing all the bearing work, there shouldn't be any wear on the flaps. The rod goes through a plastic inner bearing, which should be something like an oil impregnated nylon and rotates in a cylindrical metal outer shell. But apparently they are inadequate, and my conclusion is that it is them responsible for the whole problem - not the flap assemblies at all. Once the bushings wear, only then do the plastic ends of the flaps start to wear against the holes in the flap retainers, resulting in the wear and failures in that area that we all see.

The bad news - the part (F 1317278) is GBP 28 each from the supplier - there are two required and ideally a third would be used between intakes 2-3 ! This sort of pricing is just off planet ridiculous and a new manifold would make more financial sense. (Actually a new car would make more sense...)
 

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
665 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
For those who are interested, there is a nice write-up with photos that this forum's members might not otherwise come across, done by a Ruskie - here is the Google Translate link:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.drive2.ru%2Fl%2F288230376153161054

I am interested in Duratec HEs used in other cars like the Focus Mk2. Where apparently there are not the same flap failures occurring? Does anyone know the differences between the Focus manifold and the Mondeo's, can they be adapted for use in the Mondy?
 

·
Click4 - What will you Click4 today?
Joined
·
1,481 Posts
Is it possible to fit an extra bushing in the middle? Suspect that doesn't help the problem because the centre flap isn't supported.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
19,001 Posts
regardless, i'd have binned them and fixed it, at the great cost of a single tube of araldite.

they can't be a critical part, as the focus with the same engine has no flaps, if you look at the newer mondeo engines in the mk4, and the current ones, there are no flaps again... They must have been a really good idea. :D
 

·
Click4 - What will you Click4 today?
Joined
·
1,481 Posts
Haven't seen a focus one or new mondeo one but thought they did have some flaps In them for inlet manifold runner control, and that they was dual tract manifold.
 

·
Big Megger
Joined
·
665 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
regardless, i'd have binned them and fixed it, at the great cost of a single tube of araldite.

they can't be a critical part, as the focus with the same engine has no flaps, if you look at the newer mondeo engines in the mk4, and the current ones, there are no flaps again... They must have been a really good idea. :D
That's not correct, the Duratec 2.0 Focuses have flaps, see here

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/duratec-performance-2003-2007/270130-deleting-tumble-flaps.html

In fact I thought they were using a computer controlled throttle but in some of this guy's photos his manifold looks identical to the Mondeo's, with mounts for IACV and everything else the same. E.g. (ignore the paint job):

Flapdeleteintake.jpg


In that thread they are pointing out that the ECU needs a tune after de-flapping, which is probably what causes the jerking off idle-cruise problem after a de-flap for the Mondy. I am more interested though in seeing if a Focus manifold, or at least its flap hardware, could be adapted in a straight switch. Part of the incentive is cheaper US sourcing of parts. Need input from someone with experience with both Mk3 Mondy and Mk2 Focus.
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top